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文章發表於 : 週一 26 1月 09 12:13:41 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
用C/Y 落DSLR D色水都係怪怪的?
以前的神鏡特別係AEG MMG的鏡色水仲怪。
但ZF ZE 都唔見得好得去邊。
係Software 問題?
用MMJ的C/Y 比較好一點.............


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文章發表於 : 週一 26 1月 09 15:19:34 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
Can't answer, be more specific , and I think you are still in film logic. Film stock had particular color ( same stock that is ) but DSLR do not as Colors in a DSLR is just what you set into the parameters and how you do the development, and of course all of such is affected by multiple image parameters.

So unless you had a controlled shooting with calibrated workflow. Your question is probably best answered as : its not the lens, its the camera ... and how you used it

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文章發表於 : 週二 27 1月 09 01:16:28 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
Can't answer, be more specific , and I think you are still in film logic. Film stock had particular color ( same stock that is ) but DSLR do not as Colors in a DSLR is just what you set into the parameters and how you do the development, and of course all of such is affected by multiple image parameters.

So unless you had a controlled shooting with calibrated workflow. Your question is probably best answered as : its not the lens, its the camera ... and how you used it


FR 大大
那麼每次同一支鏡在每個Situation都要Cal.一次.......
但因為原廠鏡佢地已經Buildin一些Data inside body........they could be easier.........can I say that?


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文章發表於 : 週二 27 1月 09 16:37:58 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
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來自: Moon Base Alpha
No ... in film, as in consumer type usage , the film is a set media , and the development is highly controlled, calibrated, and standardized ( as in C41 or E6 or whatever ) ...

This is simply not the case with DSLR. Take the simple image parameter of WB. What do people use mostly, well AWB, which mean between shoots to shoots, all of them might simply had different WB.

Imaging in a DSLR is like old day film photography. Except for the Media ( film as in old days, and the sensor and imaging hardware inside your DSLR as of today ). everything else can be changed and controlled by the users.

There is of course ways to consistently getting consistent result from the same DSLR setup, but again as I say a disciplined workflow is asked for. Most of you guys unfortunately I must say do not had that in mind when shooting cause most think in term of the Film usage. In film that discipline is build into the film and build into the processing ( your Lab and you pay for it ) In digital, your DSLR is your lab, and you control it. So you got to be that discipline in the shooting ...

Do remember what the factory build into the camera is not a single set of parameters, but set of imaging parameters, and those had to work with the control also and they are geared to results as in Automation, not as in consistency. In producing generally decent image, not as in producing consistent level of image quality in the imaging.

When we want those , we had to develop those ourselves. We tend to use different film for different shoots, different setup, different subjects, and different scenes back in film days, why should we think digital would suddenly had one setting that work all ... simply won't

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文章發表於 : 週三 28 1月 09 00:41:52 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
No ... in film, as in consumer type usage , the film is a set media , and the development is highly controlled, calibrated, and standardized ( as in C41 or E6 or whatever ) ...

This is simply not the case with DSLR. Take the simple image parameter of WB. What do people use mostly, well AWB, which mean between shoots to shoots, all of them might simply had different WB.

Imaging in a DSLR is like old day film photography. Except for the Media ( film as in old days, and the sensor and imaging hardware inside your DSLR as of today ). everything else can be changed and controlled by the users.

There is of course ways to consistently getting consistent result from the same DSLR setup, but again as I say a disciplined workflow is asked for. Most of you guys unfortunately I must say do not had that in mind when shooting cause most think in term of the Film usage. In film that discipline is build into the film and build into the processing ( your Lab and you pay for it ) In digital, your DSLR is your lab, and you control it. So you got to be that discipline in the shooting ...

Do remember what the factory build into the camera is not a single set of parameters, but set of imaging parameters, and those had to work with the control also and they are geared to results as in Automation, not as in consistency. In producing generally decent image, not as in producing consistent level of image quality in the imaging.

When we want those , we had to develop those ourselves. We tend to use different film for different shoots, different setup, different subjects, and different scenes back in film days, why should we think digital would suddenly had one setting that work all ... simply won't


其實我基本都明個問題係出自要自己做番以前比錢Lab去做的野。

所以我大部份時間都用RAW拍.........
仲用Click Dropper去做White Balance,但一張張咁去做真係想死..........

但如果我用原廠鏡又唔洗咁Bor..........九成時間個WB都可以接受..........

但好似AEG 同MMG的C/Y特別唔Match Canon CMOS
MMJ同OM Kodak CCD又幾OK..........
所以我好懷疑問題同Coating有關而又唔可以有一個Universal的Setting...........
所以好頭痕............有時用Film對我來講省時省力。而且DSLR的Investment我一直都唔認為比Film平好多.........如果你Insist 要全新Body便甚。


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文章發表於 : 週三 28 1月 09 03:32:48 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
then why not manual WB .. btw I use Canon and C/Y lens also without any problem ..

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文章發表於 : 週四 29 1月 09 23:53:57 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
then why not manual WB .. btw I use Canon and C/Y lens also without any problem ..


Canon CMOS with 100mm f/2 AEG

http://www.fotop.net/Turtle/100mmf2

OM Kodak CCD with 100-300mm MMJ

http://www.fotop.net/Turtle/bunfestival07

明顯Canon CMOS的色色都怪怪的
Olympus都唔係最似Contax 加Film,但都菜菜地。

有咩Setting.........?

由於想Fully control 同日後學多些後製Method可以番手,所以我一於唔用Manual WB。多些Data 在RAW File, 我未來可以點改都得。


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文章發表於 : 週六 31 1月 09 02:18:51 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
FOA, you have the wrong idea about RAW. RAW in essense is just the Data after the A/D conversion. All White balance, Color Space , Tone Curve , and Exposure compensation is done after that. So changing whatever imaging parameter on the camera actually do not alter the RAW data. All it changed is the Meta Data added into the RAW telling the RAW developer software what setting by the photographer set into the image at time of capture, and thus can be used for default conversion parameter ( unless you override it in the software ).

On a Canon DSLR, I suppose you are using Canon DPP, the software will read these data, and display the image as converted with such data. Thus it is useful, but the software allow you to alter them by all means.

In fact on my calibrated monitor, I am viewing the photos, I see no real particular problem with the Colors. other than the over saturation ( which might or might not be due to image parameter setting which I cannot tell just by looking at those photos ). I can also see the typical warm biased color of the C/Y lens ( not quite as obvious as those earlier lens in earlier era though ).


I would say, you need to identify the particular issue. In what way do you think the color is off. Do remember if you keep trying to compare the color of a DSLR to a particular film, then its not alright, because no film is neutral by itself. And certainly not so with a print

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文章發表於 : 週一 02 2月 09 00:55:07 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
FOA, you have the wrong idea about RAW. RAW in essense is just the Data after the A/D conversion. All White balance, Color Space , Tone Curve , and Exposure compensation is done after that. So changing whatever imaging parameter on the camera actually do not alter the RAW data. All it changed is the Meta Data added into the RAW telling the RAW developer software what setting by the photographer set into the image at time of capture, and thus can be used for default conversion parameter ( unless you override it in the software ).

On a Canon DSLR, I suppose you are using Canon DPP, the software will read these data, and display the image as converted with such data. Thus it is useful, but the software allow you to alter them by all means.

In fact on my calibrated monitor, I am viewing the photos, I see no real particular problem with the Colors. other than the over saturation ( which might or might not be due to image parameter setting which I cannot tell just by looking at those photos ). I can also see the typical warm biased color of the C/Y lens ( not quite as obvious as those earlier lens in earlier era though ).


I would say, you need to identify the particular issue. In what way do you think the color is off. Do remember if you keep trying to compare the color of a DSLR to a particular film, then its not alright, because no film is neutral by itself. And certainly not so with a print


就係因為知道RAW係DATA可以改咩都得,所以拍時全Natual最好.........
但係太花時間。
Canon DPP還好
Olympus個Free Studio唔可以SAVE真係想死!


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文章發表於 : 週一 02 2月 09 02:39:06 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
Again I had to say your IDea about RAW is wrong. NO, you cannot change RAW Data, nor can software magically had something out of nothing ... RAW is captured data before the conversion / development to an image. So shooting with whatever image parameter again as I put it do not alter the real RAW Data. Thinking just get a RAW and then one can do whatever after ward is a very bad shooting habit. With RAW, and JPEG also, the motto still is to get the exposure RIGHT, and that not just the Aperture, and shutter but all those imaging pararmeters.

Shooting RAW , thus made it even more important to shoot with proper imaging parameters, as they are then put into the metadata and tell the software when you shoot, how you want the image be processed , thus the software can do that when loading the image.

As most other RAW developer, one can set to override these parameters. So your issue still, identify the issue , then you can identify where the problem arise. Its IMHO not the problem of the sensor at all.

As far as Olympus goes, that's the Mfr's problem as they made a better software but its optional. I had a E420 and I simply use RAWtherapee.

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文章發表於 : 週三 04 2月 09 16:50:20 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
Again I had to say your IDea about RAW is wrong. NO, you cannot change RAW Data, nor can software magically had something out of nothing ... RAW is captured data before the conversion / development to an image. So shooting with whatever image parameter again as I put it do not alter the real RAW Data. Thinking just get a RAW and then one can do whatever after ward is a very bad shooting habit. With RAW, and JPEG also, the motto still is to get the exposure RIGHT, and that not just the Aperture, and shutter but all those imaging pararmeters.

Shooting RAW , thus made it even more important to shoot with proper imaging parameters, as they are then put into the metadata and tell the software when you shoot, how you want the image be processed , thus the software can do that when loading the image.

As most other RAW developer, one can set to override these parameters. So your issue still, identify the issue , then you can identify where the problem arise. Its IMHO not the problem of the sensor at all.

As far as Olympus goes, that's the Mfr's problem as they made a better software but its optional. I had a E420 and I simply use RAWtherapee.


Thanks FR 大大
BTW, I use RAWTHERAPEE since you introduced in the hyper-link in Contax Club.......SO USEFUL.

This freeware is very good indeed in terms of auto-adujstment.

But quite slow in the process and cannot do BATCH PROCESSING.

In terms of performance RAW Therapee is best amongst Canon's dpp or OM's Studio. Although Canon's dslr price inculde software (that is why they are more expensive but a good marketing and total solution, I will say much wiser than Nikon or OM).

當然拍攝第一條件係正確的暴光。我拍菲林(Slide in serious situation)仲多個DSLR,所以都好明白呢個道理。

所以我的意思係拍RAW的彈性係高D,起馬有+/- 5級的暴光(當然太under一定死的),White Balance、色溫及其他等等。只拍JPEG好難救。而我認為Setting of DSLR (in body)越Natural越好。


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文章發表於 : 週三 04 2月 09 20:59:23 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
Actually the latest RAWTherapee 2.4 Beta had batch processing, it was possible to do batch processing with what's call a process queue now. Also since you use the software, you know there is something call a development profile ( by default there is Crisp and Neutral ), what you want to do is setup your own default development profile which you can set anything the software did and put it in there and set that as your default so every time it load, it would convert the image with that profile.

And no, do not go believe all the hype. RAW cannot give you room for +/- 5 stop. most of the case it can do something like 1.5 to 2 stop both way depending, but certainly not 5 stop.

Actually there is very few really natural setting in a DSLR except for the really top end model, because even so call neutral or faithful in Canon / Olympus ( and then some others ) tend to oversaturate too much and push the contrast too much. SO the JPEG can come out right even with most consumers. Canon latest DSLR though, can load your own image parameter / tone curve via Picture Style editor, Nikon also with their Camera Control.

BUt then, there is no need to keep those parameter at neutral if one shoot RAW + JPEG . Think of it this way ... the JPEG is in camera Development as the RAW processed according to the image parameters setted. the RAW is just undeveloped but with all those parameter also recorded for the software to check on ( RAWTherapeee ignore all of them since it use its own profile So whatever imaging parameter is irrelevant ).





But then when you say the color is weird. you still need to identify where the color being weird. Back in film days, in a darkroom we use densitometer and color meter, today its just histogram and alike. Unlike what many think, these thing is actually easily Quantified. Say as I stated, I see those image as oversaturated. so the way to a development is obviously to desaturate a bit using the saturation slider, and perhaps push the red curve a bit up to lighten that channel.

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文章發表於 : 週三 04 2月 09 22:40:24 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 5月 05 21:31:11
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FR大大, 那如果我真的影RAW, 個workflow應該係點先叫做disciplined workflow?

可唔可以比小小例子, 或者website會教下點做?


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文章發表於 : 週五 06 2月 09 00:59:25 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
Actually the latest RAWTherapee 2.4 Beta had batch processing, it was possible to do batch processing with what's call a process queue now. Also since you use the software, you know there is something call a development profile ( by default there is Crisp and Neutral ), what you want to do is setup your own default development profile which you can set anything the software did and put it in there and set that as your default so every time it load, it would convert the image with that profile.

And no, do not go believe all the hype. RAW cannot give you room for +/- 5 stop. most of the case it can do something like 1.5 to 2 stop both way depending, but certainly not 5 stop.

Actually there is very few really natural setting in a DSLR except for the really top end model, because even so call neutral or faithful in Canon / Olympus ( and then some others ) tend to oversaturate too much and push the contrast too much. SO the JPEG can come out right even with most consumers. Canon latest DSLR though, can load your own image parameter / tone curve via Picture Style editor, Nikon also with their Camera Control.

BUt then, there is no need to keep those parameter at neutral if one shoot RAW + JPEG . Think of it this way ... the JPEG is in camera Development as the RAW processed according to the image parameters setted. the RAW is just undeveloped but with all those parameter also recorded for the software to check on ( RAWTherapeee ignore all of them since it use its own profile So whatever imaging parameter is irrelevant ).





But then when you say the color is weird. you still need to identify where the color being weird. Back in film days, in a darkroom we use densitometer and color meter, today its just histogram and alike. Unlike what many think, these thing is actually easily Quantified. Say as I stated, I see those image as oversaturated. so the way to a development is obviously to desaturate a bit using the saturation slider, and perhaps push the red curve a bit up to lighten that channel.


Thanks! I will download the most updated version.

BTW, you are right.

I need to find what is my preference of colour and fine tone the camera setting and/or in RAW data and develop a JPEG that suit me. But it won't be easy and very time taking. And it also means monitor cal., printer cal. etc..........$ too.


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