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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 01:18:41 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/leicam8/

By Dpreview

看完這個Review,真係認為在數碼年代真係好多舊鏡都唔多好洗!

就算用M8都係咁話。

都係菲林好!但係..........仲可以有幾多人可以接受未來一百元一筒的Slide呢?

有菲林好玩多些!

Pros and Cons其實真係幾到!一看到你要比的Price Compare to Quality Diff. SIGH.......................


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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 01:38:42 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
越看越明白,Rangefinder will be HISTORY in digital age.

Solving the corner vignetting problem
Because a rangefinder camera doesn't have a mirror box doesn't need to use retrofocus lenses, meaning they sit much closer to the film (or in this case the sensor). The problem with this comes with wide angle lenses (which are pretty much the main staple of the rangefinder camera). Towards the corner of the frame the angle of incidence of light coming from the rear of the lens is so severely off-perpendicular that they would not pass equally through the microlenses above the sensor leading to fairly strong vignetting. Even a modest wide angle lens at this kind of distance could produce a difference of a stop or two between the center of the frame and the edges using a standard CCD sensor.

Leica, obviously keen to solve this problem, took a three pronged approach with the M8:

Don't use a full frame sensor - at this time it would be cost prohibitive and too complex to produce a sensor which can cover the entire 36x24 mm frame and still work with rangefinder lenses. For this reason the M8's sensor measures 27x18 mm (or 1.33x crop).

Use offset microlenses - instead of placing all microlenses directly over the photodiode they are gradually offset as you get closer to the edge of the frame (see below).

Know which lens is being used and apply some software correction - all new M series lenses now carry a six-bit code which allows the M8 to identify which lens is used and (optionally) apply a 'final stage' software based vignetting correction (for RAW images the lens used is simply recorded, no change is made).


看來Leica都好難生存,你比的錢同你得到的...........唉!
Rangefinder的好處已經完全沒有,更甚的係,佢地係用Software做相,唔係光學,又行佳能的屎佛橋.......Software.........why don't they just make a cheap lens and use software to enchance.........一定有一個可以Balance Quality 同Price的方法!

頂級鏡在CCD表現唔好,用Software改Data,用咁好的鏡其實係沒有用,轉灣沒角..........都係用Software美化!

現在明白點解Olympus一早放棄了135 format.........


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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 14:19:17 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
Nothing of concern here; as everything goes, all format had their own Pros and Cons, just that the legacy 135 format RF is not exactly the best match for the digital capturing medium.

I am not much for the M8, but still I think Leica do a OK job bringing in the M8. What they really need right now is to actually made a next generation M digital body that work , and cost much less.

Its sort of like Medium and Large format. They had their Pros, but equally they are not for most. You want that result, you just had to work with it and live with it both the good , the bad & the ugly ...

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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 17:12:48 
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註冊時間: 週三 30 6月 04 12:24:17
文章: 1237
It is only the limitation based on the current sensor technology. In the future, maybe we can have a sensor which has no IR filter, low-pass filter, Bayer filter and micro-lens.


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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 21:53:38 
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註冊時間: 週三 12 11月 03 19:31:39
文章: 26328
來自: Hong Kong
iamderek 寫:
It is only the limitation based on the current sensor technology. In the future, maybe we can have a sensor which has no IR filter, low-pass filter, Bayer filter and micro-lens.


Yeah yeah yeah, I had heard about this for over 10 years already.

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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 22:21:20 
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註冊時間: 週三 30 6月 04 12:24:17
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lofan 寫:
iamderek 寫:
It is only the limitation based on the current sensor technology. In the future, maybe we can have a sensor which has no IR filter, low-pass filter, Bayer filter and micro-lens.

Yeah yeah yeah, I had heard about this for over 10 years already.

I thought you would say that this kind of sensor has been available for more than 70 years. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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文章發表於 : 週五 03 8月 07 22:31:22 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
iamderek 寫:
It is only the limitation based on the current sensor technology. In the future, maybe we can have a sensor which has no IR filter, low-pass filter, Bayer filter and micro-lens.


在數碼年代,一年都已經係好長的時間!
Leica 電子唔強,所以講的係光學同History
但係基本Range finder的好處都變成壞處...........而且好難突破!
正如大家所見,十年來我唔見Digital有咩大的突破。
CMOS CCD then BIGGER CMOS CCD and DUST REMOVAL
Noise Control
Dynamic Range
Software Enchancement
但係基本的Physical問題係沒有做個東西,或者係我唔知,因為我唔係Software Engineer。我總係覺得Canon公司已成為Software Engineer的世界.............或Programmer.


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文章發表於 : 週六 04 8月 07 00:03:16 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
G2 Lover 寫:
在數碼年代,一年都已經係好長的時間!
Leica 電子唔強,所以講的係光學同History
但係基本Range finder的好處都變成壞處...........而且好難突破!
.....
但係基本的Physical問題係沒有做個東西,或者係我唔知,因為我唔係Software Engineer。我總係覺得Canon公司已成為Software Engineer的世界.............或Programmer.


Well for sure and that is Why Leica is this state of affair and its not the first time either. Their entry into film SLR with the Leicaflex and their first TTL metering as in the M5 is in any way a relfection of their rather lackluster way of doing thing or rather anything that is not the Opto-Mechanical.

Still, I debate the saying. No Digital came along a LOT in this last 10 year. And what is it mean by the "基本的Physical問題" I fail to see any real issue here. I think people mistook the media and capturing as the camera. No they are not. Back in film days, Canon nor Nikon do not made film which is the capturing media and they do not made any darkroom related product. The Sensor, software and todays various electronic associated with that imaging part is the Medium in Digital realm. Can we really criticize Canon for that. These Mfr at least had the know and the will to forge forward. In a sense Leica neither had the might nor the knowing which is where they fail.

None of these had anything to do with " 基本的Physical問題 " which I suppose one mean the camera. No in digital, the camera is not a camera anymore as in traditional sense. Back in film days, its the platform to hold the shutter and work with the lens to facilitate capturing and that's about it. It need a view and focusing mechanism and some form to wind the film but Its independent of the film or the darkroom process.

In todays digital capturing platform, the imaging media ( the sensor ) is part of the camera, making at least the capturing and initial A/D signaling part of the system. One thus, & must, see the DSLR/ Digital RF body as such.

I think some might not want to hear this, but no, the limitation is not on the media or the sensor technology. If its really that bad, most people will be using film still, at least all the PRO, that is certainly not the case. What I see is people unwilling to accept the fact that digital is not film and they simply behave and work differently and require different way of usage.

Leica try to merge the medium with the opto-mechanical of the M series. Which when properly done I would see no wrong. What Leica fail is they made a bad job out of it and place expectation way too high ( and certainly price also )

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文章發表於 : 週六 04 8月 07 01:11:31 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
其實在數碼垃圾的年代Leica以前的機械Feel仲有沒有必要保留呢?

咁Q貴一個Body...........其實Dpreview 這個Forum中的Tester都自己認唔係菲林年代的人。但係佢的一句真係好到" I was also skeptical that there was still a place for such a significantly manually controlled camera in such an automatic world where every new camera removes one more layer of control from the photographer."

現在的年輕人沒有經過菲林年代,沒有經過機械Body年代︰包括好多好的日本機如Olympus OM-3, Nikon FM2, F3, Minolta X-Series, Canon F1, Contax S2, Pentax 67 etc............

對佢地來講比多五、六萬係買一個佢地唔認同的Feel。

比我一定玩Film Body,要玩Leica同Zeiss M 都係。


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文章發表於 : 週六 04 8月 07 01:21:07 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
FR 寫:
G2 Lover 寫:
在數碼年代,一年都已經係好長的時間!
Leica 電子唔強,所以講的係光學同History
但係基本Range finder的好處都變成壞處...........而且好難突破!
.....
但係基本的Physical問題係沒有做個東西,或者係我唔知,因為我唔係Software Engineer。我總係覺得Canon公司已成為Software Engineer的世界.............或Programmer.


Well for sure and that is Why Leica is this state of affair and its not the first time either. Their entry into film SLR with the Leicaflex and their first TTL metering as in the M5 is in any way a relfection of their rather lackluster way of doing thing or rather anything that is not the Opto-Mechanical.

Still, I debate the saying. No Digital came along a LOT in this last 10 year. And what is it mean by the "基本的Physical問題" I fail to see any real issue here. I think people mistook the media and capturing as the camera. No they are not. Back in film days, Canon nor Nikon do not made film which is the capturing media and they do not made any darkroom related product. The Sensor, software and todays various electronic associated with that imaging part is the Medium in Digital realm. Can we really criticize Canon for that. These Mfr at least had the know and the will to forge forward. In a sense Leica neither had the might nor the knowing which is where they fail.

None of these had anything to do with " 基本的Physical問題 " which I suppose one mean the camera. No in digital, the camera is not a camera anymore as in traditional sense. Back in film days, its the platform to hold the shutter and work with the lens to facilitate capturing and that's about it. It need a view and focusing mechanism and some form to wind the film but Its independent of the film or the darkroom process.

In todays digital capturing platform, the imaging media ( the sensor ) is part of the camera, making at least the capturing and initial A/D signaling part of the system. One thus, & must, see the DSLR/ Digital RF body as such.

I think some might not want to hear this, but no, the limitation is not on the media or the sensor technology. If its really that bad, most people will be using film still, at least all the PRO, that is certainly not the case. What I see is people unwilling to accept the fact that digital is not film and they simply behave and work differently and require different way of usage.

Leica try to merge the medium with the opto-mechanical of the M series. Which when properly done I would see no wrong. What Leica fail is they made a bad job out of it and place expectation way too high ( and certainly price also )


I will say in this digital age.

"MIXTURE OF DIGITAL PARTS" is the term I will say for any manufactuer in whatever production.

For Canon they have all the technology or same CHIPS, IC board etc. for all of their products no matter CAMERAS, PRINTERS, SCANNERS.

I didn't see this is a BIG movement as basically they are all the same.

INPUT, Analysis, OUTPUT (In between RAM, CPU, CHIPS Calculation, Matix Analysis, Programming)

Just MIXTURE OF DIGITAL PARTS and this is not anything interesting at all in sense of ART and Innovation.

And I am sure they had develop the whole line for next few years or so. Making BIGGER LCDs larger pixel, software update and dig $$$ from crazy users.

Take Canon as an example

EOS 10, 20 30 there is really no need to have EOS 10D or 20D as 30D already been designed and set it back to EOS 10D (making the lifespan longer).


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文章發表於 : 週六 04 8月 07 16:43:18 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
引言回覆:
- Just MIXTURE OF DIGITAL PARTS and this is not anything interesting at all in sense of ART and Innovation. -


Which of course is the case and should be ( or not ). These Manufacturer are out to manufacture the tool. The tool do not made the art part. Its the user.

Innovation. Now that's debatable. First what is innovation defined as in this case. As Manufacturer, they innovate alright. !) .. what I see is photography is always and shall always be part art, part craft, and part technical, part science. The Mfr take care of the technical side. Science is something else. Manufacturer will not innovate simply for the sake of innovating. Science might advance, but if its not going to made good business sense. it remain just Science, and not into the realm of technical and consumers.

Besides, why do we need interesting thing on art and innovation. Its not like we cannot made good pictures with them. Traditional Drawing & Painting do not see much innovation or alike for literally centuries already, and they still perfectly viable tool for great art.

IMHO , many of todays photographer had lost touch with their art and craft and now need to rely on stimuli as in new toys. As a hobbyist , its nothing uncommon, its just that this is no reason to lament the art itself and certainly not a reason to pounce on the Mfr. My take on the matter is the Mfr after all is a commercial entity, and their position is to made tools that sell and its up to us to utilize those tools. We might or might not like the way they do it ( just as I do not much care for the M8 ) but its the market and the business that dictate if a product is viable. In a way, Canon is more apt in their packaging and doing business than most others.

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最後由 FR 於 週日 05 8月 07 01:13:28 編輯,總共編輯了 2 次。

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文章發表於 : 週六 04 8月 07 19:35:27 
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註冊時間: 週二 30 1月 07 01:53:39
文章: 72
FR 寫:
- Just MIXTURE OF DIGITAL PARTS and this is not anything interesting at all in sense of ART and Innovation. --------------


多口講句, 你唔係以為同佢理論可以令佢明白D咩呀? 留返啖氣暖下肚好過 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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文章發表於 : 週日 05 8月 07 01:35:52 
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註冊時間: 週三 04 1月 06 22:55:14
文章: 3990
仔仔 寫:
FR 寫:
- Just MIXTURE OF DIGITAL PARTS and this is not anything interesting at all in sense of ART and Innovation. --------------


多口講句, 你唔係以為同佢理論可以令佢明白D咩呀? 留返啖氣暖下肚好過 :lol: :lol: :lol:


哈哈哈!大家Open Discussion,有咩明唔明!
我同FR大大面對面都King 過一次!唔洗留氣,鬼唔知Arts 係由個Photographer的Creatative做出來!

我在這裡所講的Arts係Craftsman
Leica 用手做所以有Craft,有Arts,有Original Design,有Innovation,有Creative唔好同我講用機械大量,*.*出來的生產係Arts。如果係Arts就唔會有咁多數碼垃圾。

Leica的光學成就(只係個人認為-呢個Topic己經可以成為大學論文)不及Zeiss,但係佢Standardize了135mm format(而有人也未必會認同),有好多原用至今。

數碼相機只係科技同電子工具(都係個人認為,我看佢同手機沒有分別)。

又我看菲林相機同數碼相機如

機械錶同電子錶,你話邊個有地位!邊個係Arts......

當然個Photographer有沒有料同有幾多藝術感先係最重要。

點解有History及名家用人手做功藝品有Value,點解量產的沒有...........道理好Simple.

FR大大有佢的Points,但係唔係人人都有同一個想法,而且FR大大唔係好似我咁係一般人,我唔知數碼同菲機當中的好多History同發展過程,但係FR大大係N年前已經用Digital Camera而且係在業界做個工作。所以佢見到個海我先見到條溪仔。

我在這是吹吓水,發表自己的看法,你可以唔出聲又或講你的意見,起馬你對人都要有基本的禮貌。

最後,如果你地係都要咩都話係Arts都沒有所謂,因為現在咩都可以係BSC. in Arts. 香港有八家大學!


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文章發表於 : 週日 05 8月 07 01:55:00 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
indeed, I do agree Leica is trump on craftsmanship, and yes todays equipment is much less on that. Its ultimately a matter of how things change between the then and now.

In a sense do we need craftsmanship for craftsmanship's sense other than a subjective preference for that. In a way one had to define what one see as in craftsmanship. The way Leica do it is one way but equally how Nikon do the D2Xs or Canon doing the 1D/1Ds is another way of doing it.

I never consider any craftsmanship as ART , and likewise the saying of Leica or a genuine mechanical watch as art is not IMHO the case. I see them as good craftsmanship. When a Mfr elevate a pure mechanical being over and above its own standing as a tool would I consider it a classic or an ART in itself. The original Contax I is in itself one, so do the original M3. But equally I do not dispute mass produced being or simple consumer product from that either. The original VW beetle is certainly not much of a craftsmanship in life but it certainly attain art status as in its impact and social status. The Pentax Spotmatic is mass produced so do its famed K1000 decedent. One cannot dispute its Status either as a classic.

What G2Lover lament is the lack of such in recent years offerings. But as such, I suppose its not unsound to say almost each generation of this last decade of Digital Photographic product actually signal & address some form of advance. And while they might not be considered craftsmanship in the traditional handiwork sense. ITs craftsmanship none the less.

Sensibly consumer might not be too taken with it, but fact remain craftsmanship cost money, and market and consumer is just not paying for that or there is too few who are really willing to pay up for this level of product excellence. ITs not a simple fact of market economy but equally its also just a reflection of commodity status of such products.

The question as to the original POST .. is there a reason enough to employ better lens if all we have is such capturing medium. That in itself is a self limiting question. Lens can be employed on different usage and also for future cameras ( which might or might not exceeded the lens capability ). ITs up to the individual to decide for himself / herself how to judge cost vs usability vs actual performance. For real , though using the M8 as a judgment criteria is both a bit unfair to the camera and the lens IMHO

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文章發表於 : 週日 05 8月 07 05:02:55 
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註冊時間: 週二 30 1月 07 01:53:39
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G2先生, 我承認我的確對你有偏見, 只因同類的話題見得太多太多, 都是有關Analog vs Digital的問題.

當然我明白你的看法:

1. Film是不可替代的
2. 數碼機係垃圾
3. 菲林市場續漸式微 and hence
4. 要搵一個出到菜味(仲要計有幾多成)而又能令你滿意的數碼機身
5. 數碼灰, 菲林才是王道
6. 我懶, 而且討厭後期制作, 所以
7. 還是菲林好, 一再認定數碼機係垃圾, 奈何
8. 菲林終有日會停產, 都係要及時搵個合心水的數碼機身, 我都唔想, 但又有咩辦法...........

--------------------------

例如, Canon無所謂誠意等等的說話已經聽過太多. 敢問一句, 何謂誠意? 改良產品有錯嗎? 又一定要Mechanic先係Craftsmanship先係誠意? 都太唔公平吧.

別人用心的付出你看不見, 你不欣賞, 你不滿意, 沒有問題. 不如自己做相機吧, 自己設計生產一手包辦, 理應不會有不滿意的地方. 自家生產的例子可以參考安原一式和剛仁的波頭, 都是獨當一面的產品.

記得有一個作家寫的專欄,

有一學生問老師道「老師, 為何沒有一本齊集天下智識的書, 好讓讀過後便能無所不知?」

老師答「有, 會有的, 這本書等你來寫.」


在我看來, 閣下就是這麼一回事吧.

引言回覆:
點解有History及名家用人手做功藝品有Value,點解量產的沒有...........道理好Simple.


我認為, 你的執著在於定優劣, 分高下. 我的執著在於運用, 現實. 我沒有甚麼固定的立場, 也從沒有刻意定義藝術, 我在乎的是各類的相機所帶來的不同的好處. 要定框架挑毛病只會令自己不享受使用相機. 器材存在價值的高低, 終歸也取決於我們以甚麼的心態使用它們.

順帶一提, 我正是各下口中的年輕人, 我使用過Nikon FM2, F2. Minolta XD, Canon A1, 別人的Contax ST, RX, G1, G2, Pentax 67. 以及市場上大部份的數碼相機.
他們全都是我的愛將, 只因他們都能夠讓我開懷地拍照. 這是我所重視的.


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