CONTAX CLUB Carl Zeiss 討論區

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文章發表於 : 週日 29 4月 07 17:25:00 
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註冊時間: 週一 07 3月 05 21:51:38
文章: 14
vincenthoy28 寫:
Clifford 寫:
If you don't tell me that it is the lens design from the new C-B21/4.5 in advance, I believe I will call it 'Distagon' (although weird...) just by the first glance....... :oops:


Correct me if I am wrong...

From my concept, the biogon design concept is to use 2 group of sonnar lens element with one group located invertly to form a biogon design....Therefore, it seem to me that the new C-B21/4.5 is still like a true biogon design...


Check it out at www.cosina.co.jp
If you compare the design of C-B21/4.5 with (Cosina)voigtlander 21/4P.
You will find something very interesting................
What's the difference, if any, except T* coating and -1/3 aperature value.
It costs only 2K something for cosina 21/4 including viewfinder, which BTW, very similar to Zeiss' one(2.9K???? T*???????????).
I wanna buy Zeiss share if it's publicly listed in HK rather than their products.


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文章發表於 : 週日 29 4月 07 23:37:01 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
Well first off, what is Biogon design. Do remember there is actually 3 to 4 different Biogon design which all are named the same but are quite different ... Optically speaking !!

The Cosina 21/4.0 is a Biogon in the sense of the POST WAR Biogon which is not having anything to do with a triplet derived design. Instead its purely end to end double ended Reverse Tele-objective. The new Zeiss C-Biogon is actually not the same as the older vintage 50's Biogon as it revert back to the Sonnar derived Biogon of pre war era

The Distagon is single reveresed Tele objective so it can hardly be say that this 21mm be that. Nor can the Cosina 21/4.0 be termed optically similar ( they used quite different design ). I guess too many here just take a look at how many element and group is in there and if they look similar they are what that seems, but when examining lens, one had to also look at the Glass as a group property .

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文章發表於 : 週一 07 5月 07 20:30:41 
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註冊時間: 週一 07 3月 05 21:51:38
文章: 14
Just compare cosina 21/4 and Zeiss 21/4.5.

You still believe cosina 21/4 is different from zeiss "NEW DESIGN" 21/4.5?
You still believe it is a "NEW DESIGN"?
Or you simply believe everything you are told by Zeiss?

You are right, I can't tell how the elements of these lens are grouped by just looking at the sectional diagram.
But, it just happened that these two lens both have 8 elements grouped in 6 groups, according to offical web sites of these two companies.
I wonder how dirrerent they can be in this situation if we are not discussing this topic in molecular level.
Do I need Ph.D in quantum mechanic, btw?

Actually, it's not my intension to discuss how these lens are named, Biogon or Distagon, I don't care.
All I'm saying is, if Zeiss uses lens design from other company, it shouldn't market the product as if they are original design from Zeiss.
Most of the products branded "Zeiss" are over-priced, given that many of them are designed and manufactured in Japan.
I hope consumers will wake up and do not over-weight Zeiss too much.


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文章發表於 : 週一 07 5月 07 21:24:38 
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註冊時間: 週日 09 11月 03 03:42:29
文章: 12296
neural 寫:
Just compare cosina 21/4 and Zeiss 21/4.5.

You still believe cosina 21/4 is different from zeiss "NEW DESIGN" 21/4.5?
You still believe it is a "NEW DESIGN"?
Or you simply believe everything you are told by Zeiss?

You are right, I can't tell how the elements of these lens are grouped by just looking at the sectional diagram.
But, it just happened that these two lens both have 8 elements grouped in 6 groups, according to offical web sites of these two companies.
I wonder how dirrerent they can be in this situation if we are not discussing this topic in molecular level.
Do I need Ph.D in quantum mechanic, btw?

Actually, it's not my intension to discuss how these lens are named, Biogon or Distagon, I don't care.
All I'm saying is, if Zeiss uses lens design from other company, it shouldn't market the product as if they are original design from Zeiss.
Most of the products branded "Zeiss" are over-priced, given that many of them are designed and manufactured in Japan.
I hope consumers will wake up and do not over-weight Zeiss too much.

em.....I don't know, if the drawing as drawing by Cosina and Zeiss is true, the shape and the thickness of the lens element is different.....It can be a completely new design....

Same case as if you looking at Canon 50mm lens and Contax 50mm lens, you will know their design is the same....but are you dare to say their image output is the same... :wink:

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文章發表於 : 週一 07 5月 07 21:24:47 
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註冊時間: 週五 27 1月 06 12:09:10
文章: 550
來自: Singapore
Zeiss has more than enough of their original designs to use, they do not need to use other people design! They only ask Japanese to manufacture to lower down the cost.

The Zeiss 21/4.5 and the Voigtlander 21/4 should be very different. Can somebody attach the optical layout? Zeiss one is readily available. I could not locate a link for the Voigtlander one. I have a hardcopy print out of the Voigtlander 21. I believe u do not need to be an engineer to see the different. In fact they are very different.

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Carl Zeiss C/Y T* - QBM HFT - ZM T* - ZF T* - Batis T* - Otus T* - Loxia T*
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文章發表於 : 週一 07 5月 07 22:00:40 
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註冊時間: 週六 08 11月 03 07:56:21
文章: 5762
Here is the Voigtlander:

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The C-Biogon (captured from the pdf file from CZ):

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The post-war Biogon 21/4.5 (Contax IIa/IIIa & Contarex)

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http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/chatvert ... /b21c.html

The pre-war Biogon 35/2.8:

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http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/chatvert ... /b35c.html

The post-war Biogon 35/2.8

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http://www.takuya.jp/htm/biogon35-28-k.htm

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最後由 wah 於 週五 11 5月 07 15:21:13 編輯,總共編輯了 1 次。

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文章發表於 : 週二 08 5月 07 18:16:16 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
Well, let me phrase it this way ... there is no such thing as one company taking others design in these cases, as almost all Lens design of today are just variation of one sort or another from legacy lens design. Even the newest BASIC lens design is pretty old , in fact decades old as in the 50's ( basically that's the post war Biogon and SLR wide angle design of Retro Telephoto, Reverse telephoto and Paired Revere Telephoto )

In fact if we want to really be too critical about this, then we must say both Zeiss and Cosina do not held the original design as this design ( read Biogon or similar as in post war type ) were originally conceived by a Soviet Optical Scientist PRE-WAR and published in scientific papers as by Roosinov circa 1934 !!

Its just that they were not ever used in a commercial photographic optics until way after the war ...

I figure people here are too critical about those naming and so .... a name in a product is just that, a name, does not really indicate anything or indicate originality by any account in fact. So LEica claim their Elmar which by all account just a variation of the Tessar. Likewise Zeiss claim the name of Planar but many of todays Planar are certainly Not even Planar in design ( strictly optically speaking )

There is no need to be fussy about these. As any commercial entity goes, they are free to name their product. There is no sense in arguing over that matter.

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文章發表於 : 週六 26 5月 07 08:50:11 
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註冊時間: 週二 23 5月 06 03:40:41
文章: 30
all lens needs good glass, but i dont think cosina has good glass.


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文章發表於 : 週六 26 5月 07 12:34:13 
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註冊時間: 週四 27 11月 03 02:15:48
文章: 3194
來自: Moon Base Alpha
heliar 寫:
all lens needs good glass, but i dont think cosina has good glass.


This is hilarious, of course Cosina do not have good glass, cause Cosina never a Glass Mfr, but heed this. Japan is a very mature industrial nation and their optical Glass industry is well & among the better ones in the world .. Don't keep this kind of blind brand snobbery just because of name and origin.

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文章發表於 : 週二 19 6月 07 23:05:46 
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註冊時間: 週日 09 11月 03 00:26:48
文章: 6252
來自: Hong Kong
190g 重量 + 近零變形 + 解像力.........鐘意 ZM 的話好難抗拒 ~ :twisted:

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文章發表於 : 週三 20 6月 07 00:07:05 
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註冊時間: 週五 28 11月 03 23:54:34
文章: 13675
來自: Hong Kong SAR
Clifford 寫:
190g 重量 + 近零變形 + 解像力.........鐘意 ZM 的話好難抗拒 ~ :twisted:

下星期訂,預埋您?

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文章發表於 : 週三 20 6月 07 00:19:35 
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註冊時間: 週六 08 11月 03 07:56:21
文章: 5762
FR 寫:
heliar 寫:
all lens needs good glass, but i dont think cosina has good glass.


This is hilarious, of course Cosina do not have good glass, cause Cosina never a Glass Mfr, but heed this. Japan is a very mature industrial nation and their optical Glass industry is well & among the better ones in the world .. Don't keep this kind of blind brand snobbery just because of name and origin.


Again.............from 極樂堂

http://zeiss7.hp.infoseek.co.jp/rep-z06nak_fac02.htm

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文章發表於 : 週三 20 6月 07 08:49:40 
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註冊時間: 週五 27 1月 06 12:09:10
文章: 550
來自: Singapore
Sign.......... really miss out a lot not understand Japanese. Many of you guys seems to know Japanese. Is this a common second language in Hong Kong or it is the common language for Zeiss lovers?

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Rolleiflex 3003, SL2000F - SONY Alpha7R 1/2/4. A1
Carl Zeiss C/Y T* - QBM HFT - ZM T* - ZF T* - Batis T* - Otus T* - Loxia T*
Sony. Zeiss 16-35/4 T* G200600 GM100400 GM600
http://www.fuwen.net


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文章發表於 : 週三 20 6月 07 08:54:15 
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註冊時間: 週一 06 6月 05 23:31:23
文章: 1010
fuwen 寫:
Sign.......... really miss out a lot not understand Japanese. Many of you guys seems to know Japanese. Is this a common second language in Hong Kong or it is the common language for Zeiss lovers?


Maybe just a common third language in our club.

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文章發表於 : 週四 12 7月 07 20:25:09 
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註冊時間: 週五 27 1月 06 12:09:10
文章: 550
來自: Singapore
Was surprise that the 21/4.5 price is so close to the 21/2.8. Is it made in Germany?

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Rolleiflex 3003, SL2000F - SONY Alpha7R 1/2/4. A1
Carl Zeiss C/Y T* - QBM HFT - ZM T* - ZF T* - Batis T* - Otus T* - Loxia T*
Sony. Zeiss 16-35/4 T* G200600 GM100400 GM600
http://www.fuwen.net


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